R-LINE SYMPOSIUM ON-LINE
Craig: Would someone care to answer CD Romaine's question, "What is
the R-Line?"
Steve: You can find some material from Beilby's out-of print book on The
Stafford Exchange at: http://www.staffordmall.com/staffordexchange.htm
. Basically the R-Line consists of Staffords that have descended in
direct tail-male line from an early dog named Ribchester Max, mostly
through Bandits Brintiga. The M-Line, descending from Brindle Mick,
enjoys numerical superiority, but all the other Lines have either fallen into
obscurity or vanished completely.
Mary: It's great that another of the original lines is still out there and
accessible. I was curious about the amount of inbreeding in the R-line,
as I think I remember it being stated some months ago that the M-line
was so inbred that there was going to be trouble up ahead if there
wasn't some outcrossing.
Steve: I'd like to emphasize that at this moment there are plenty of typy,
sound, and genetically "clean" M-Line dogs in all Stafford
countries, but the increase in HD, PRA, CPS, and JC -- unknown in the
Breed 30 years ago -- is a warning sign and an extremely alarming one,
at that. M-Line breeders need to proceed with caution, and I'm sure that many
are beginning to do so.
Mary: Today after our weekly hike in the forest with the dogs, Becky and I
were viewing this neat scrapbook she has recently acquired. It contains
all kinds of ads and articles from the turn of the century thru the 30'
40's 50's +. It shows several R line dogs, and early M-Line dogs. Very
different in type among them. All in all, it was an interesting excursion
into conformation, type and whatever hype the dogs had attached to them. Some
of them (either lines) had conformation faults that we would not like today,
but they were touted as champion, or successful proven studs, dead game
on badgers etc. Some of them looked quite similar to the show Stafford
we recognize today, others quite a bit more like Staffords on stilts,
some with rather long noses and odd shaped heads etc. One thing that I
saw all had in common was much larger, softer looking ears. The sizes
ranged as much then as they do today....if not more. Really fun stuff to
study.
Seriously, though, It seems to me that the M-Line has branched out enough
so that it is not really in that much danger at this point.
Steve: Yes, the M-Line has branched out numerically, but the numbers don't
really address the problem because numbers do nothing to increase
genetic diversity. The numbers only SEEM to "spread the
risk."
Two kinds of M-Line inbreeding have been taking place: 1) Every line in the
pedigree goes back to Brindle Mick, and in many specimens that means
more than 64 lines 2) inbreeding within the two or three most recent
generations, often to stock that is itself unwisely inbred and almost
always without any culling.
Mary: But isn't the R-line is numereically much smaller and doesn't it have
a lot more up-close inbreeding?
Steve; Yes, the R-Line is numerically smaller, which makes it easier to
keep track of. As I said, most R-Line descendants come down from
Bandits Brintiga, and there has indeed been considerable inbreeding in
the R-Line, too, as well as some outcrossing to the M-Line, so the
R-Line should be considered a "comfortable" rather that a "complete"
outcross. (Actually, a complete outcross was never possible after the original
Bulldog and Terrier crosses.)
Mary: How does [outcrossing] this help....or hinder?
Steve: It helps two ways: 1) fostering hybrid vigor with its many benefits
such as increased fertility and longevity 2) providing a way to avoid
excessive inbreeding.
It may hinder in two ways: 1) if the two crossed strains are somewhat
dissimilar in phenotype, causing a diminishment of type (within the
Standard) in a hihgly-bred strain 2) tending to reduce the genetic
prepotency of resulting offspring.
In the next ten to fifteen years even the carefully bred and culled M-Line
dogs will begin needing outcross blood to maintain the vigor and
vitality of the original Stafford stock. The only source of outcross
blood is the R-Line. But unless the best R-Line stock were every bit as
good as the best M-Line stock (which seems to be the case today) it would be
useless.
Mary: It would be interesting to be able to start looking at the DNA on
some of our dogs.
Linda: As for the DNA testing, I'm bringing King as well as one of the male
pups from my last litter to Seattle for the Specialty weekend and
intend to have them DNA'ed by the AKC.
Mary: That's great, Linda. I, too, am interested in the DNA for my linebred
dog and bitch and their outcross mother. I wasn't sure how the DNA was
going to be used. Is this something that AKC is going to use somehow in
a data base for their own studies, or are the owners getting access
(and interpretation) to the results?
Linda: The owners will get access to the results. Interpretation? I don't
know.
Mary: What about mixing and and matching phenotypesfrom these different
lines?
Steve: Because Staffords at shows are judged without reference to Lines,
the cumulative result is that the best R-Line stock and the best M-Line
stock cannot be distinguished from each other on the basis of Line,
that is, on the basis of the phenotype. So, the R-Line and the M-Line
phenotype are practically identical although their genotypes differ.
Each Line has its Good, Better, and Best specimens.
Today's show-ring Staffords are much more uniform in phenotype than 30
years ago but are much more prone to hereditary (genotype) disorders
such as HD, PRA, and CPS due to wise and unwise inbreeding coupled with
a nearly complete lack of sensible culling.
Perhaps two or three percent of all Staffords ever whelped see the inside
of a show ring and that many of the best spend their entire lives at
home with the family (where they belong).
Paul: Aren't all Staffords the product of inbreeding at some distant point?
How can we have a true outcross from initially inbred stock? Don't all
of the lines descend from the same original stock?
Steve: At the time of the original Bulldog and Terrier cross, the Bulldog
had probably endured considerable inbreeding over the preceding two
hundred years while the Terrier was probably less inbred. So the
original Bull-and-Terrier cross was a total outcross. When the first
Staffords were KC registered a hundred and twenty years later, the
pedigrees of most dogs could not be verified beyond a couple of generations,
so we have no way of knowing what degree of inbreeding, if any, was
involved. But any inbreeding that did take place must have been for
retaining gameness rather than for conformation.
Paul: For outcrossing, don't we need to take the best possible specimens
having the most inbreeding of the R and M lines?
Steve: Yes. Those specimens need outcrossing the most and will make for the
greatest possible hybrid vigor in the offspring.
Paul: Don't the last 3 or 4 generations that statistically indicate the CoI?
Steve: Yes, but we're not talking statistics here but real dogs that live
with real flesh-and-blood people.
Paul: If there were no originally genetically defective Staffords [30 years
ago], where did the HD and other genetic defects come from? Can you
breed in something that does not exist genetically to begin with? As an
analogy, can we have blue eyed or bi-eyed Staffords if it is not
somewhere in the genetic makeup?
Steve: In Staffords as in most breeds, the highly desirable traits are
dominant and the undesirable ones are recessive. Inbreeding brings out
hidden deleterious recesssive characteristics which, if not culled,
begin to spread through the Breed. Once a recessive, such as Hd,
appears it is difficult to get rid of.
Paul: I think that is the reason that we are all here [on the Forum] and
attempting to understand and utilize the information that we are
sharing. I, personally, have a three-generation plan that cannot be
implemented for another 8-12 months with inbred M-Line dogs. Only time
will tell if they are worth breeding. If they are not in my, and others
more knowledgeable, opinion, I will have them neutered and enjoy the hell out
of them for the rest of their lives. At least that is my plan, and we
all know that the "best plans of mice and men" etc. etc...
Linda's: Since in my house I have some VERY tightly bred, double- R-Line
bred dogs and bitches, I can tell you right now that my next litter
from my only breedable bitch will be an outcross; I just need to decide
what dog to use over her.
The male from her litter will be judiciously used over R-Line bitches other
than my own as well as outcrossed to see how prepotent he is as a stud
dog. Since he's tightly bred, he should be very potent, but only time
will tell. This male is King; the one Craig was talking about.
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